wish's idea:

Wish: New Looting System
Wed Dec 3 09:55:08 2003
To: all
It has been suggested that one of the obstacles to keeping new players
is that the complete looting of corpses tends discourage them when they die.
However, it has also been shown that restricting the pk game on TFC
tends to drive away the older players who represent the player base of TFC.

Therefore, I propose the following new system for looting of corpses.
When a corpse is found, either by pk or by corpse rescuse(loot), only
a fixed number of items may be taken from the corpse (3-5?). This would
only apply to corpses of players of a certain level, say level 20 and below.
Once the items were randomly picked from the corpse, the corpse would
automatically be put into the inventory of the person who died. The person
who looted the corpse would still be able to get decent eq, like named
amulets, and would still have a chance to get any other decent gear from
the corpse by good and selective item picking, but the bulk of the eq
would stay with the corpse. This would retain the incentive to pk
under 20's while allowing them to keep a good amount of gear.

Saccing of such corpses would be disallowed, or it would simply
send the corpse to the inventory of the person who died.
Finally, corpses of this level or lower would not disintegrate unless
in the inventory of the person who died, etc. etc.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

and the (usually) related notes and comments which follow....

Rand: Re: Wish: New Looting System
Wed Dec 3 14:56:36 2003
To: all
I dont think the problem is the looting system or even the debt system for that matter.
Most newbie killers are stopped once their debt reaches a certain point and they
lose the eq they stole from the newbies. The problem arises when you get characters like
Gafgarion who dont care about eq. How do you stop someone who does not care about dieing?
Who literally has nothing to lose? This i think is the true problem newbies have to face.
The newbie killer who wont stop, wont go away, and cant be stopped by those better equiped.

Rose of the Coven,
Rand al'Thor

		*****
Wish: RE: Rand and Obsessive newbie killers
Wed Dec 3 16:22:28 2003
To: all
I believe my idea would still be beneficial to the game, even with such killers.
The goal would be to make dying not so harsh on the low level char.
While it may not solve all the problems in the game, it does solve that one.

It is an easy thing to solve the problem of obsessive newbie killers
with outlandish pk debt: Make Bounty Hunters more like mage mobs and
don't let a person wiggle out by killing self everytime one is sent.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave
		*****
Rand: Re: Wish...ect.
Wed Dec 3 19:00:03 2003
To: all

I completely agree. Would also be simpler to just delete pkers like Gafgarion when it
becomes obvious they do not intend to do anything to further themselves beyond pking people
naked.

Rose of the Coven.
Rand al'Thor
		*****
Janna: Rand, Gafgarion, et al.
Wed Dec 3 19:31:44 2003
To: all
Being an enforcer, I must admit right from the start that I dislike both of these individuals,
Or at least I dislike what they stand for. However, I feel the need to point out a few things.
To begin with, Gafgarion is not a newbie killer even in the most liberal of terms.
Being level 10, I have ceased to be a newbie myself. Gafgarion is level 19,
making the bottom end of his range level 15. If you doubt this, simply read help pk1. It should set you
straight.
As you can see from reading this help file, it is legal for gafgarion to pursue individuals of his own range.
He is not a newbie, nor are his victims. He is a vile, evil individual who, hopefully, will someday see the light.
But he is not a newbie killer, so stop all that nonsense please?
Being good, and loving truth and justice and abhoring lies and injustice, I had to speak out.
Gafgarion will probably attack me someday soon, and I will be decidedly unhappy about it should it happen,
However I will not play the newbie killer card because it is just stupid, and untrue.
It seems we disagree once again Rand.

Janna
		*****
Kayura: re: Rand: Re: Wish...ect. [sic]
Wed Dec 3 19:40:39 2003
To: rand gafgarion all

Yes, let's further restrict the ways in which a player can
enjoy the game. Delete pkers if all they do is pk. I mean, honestly,
unless someone can write a poem, song, story, or can engage in
melodramatic roleplaying and watchdogging of infinitesimal issues
of non-conformity with what has been woven into the afghan of
political correctness, than he shouldn't be allowed to play.
If only I could have been a bard!
		*****
Erian: Re: Janna, Wish, Rand, etc...
Wed Dec 3 20:44:59 2003
To: all

A pc can be a newbie in a lot of ways...PKing is usually one of the last things a
player starts to understand, and it is impossible to expect someone to know
everything about PKing once they hit level 10. I think Wish's idea is a
good one...it's sort of a compromise, and is geared to keep the PK aspect
of the game a fun one, so the newer players would want to stay on TFC.

Sorry Janna, but I disagree...and being a rather new player myself, I speak truthfully.

Erian.
		*****
Janna: Newbies
Wed Dec 3 21:22:24 2003
To: all
I didn't say anything about Wish's idea in my note, pro or con.
I merely stated that at level 15, the bottom end of Gafgarion's range, one is no longer a newbie.
And if one is a true newbie, which we don't know about from an IC POV, they have from level 5 to 15 to learn,
before meeting up with the likes of Gafgarion.
That gives them 10 levels to learn the basics of fleeing, quaffing, etc.
My note basically disagreed with Rand regarding Gafgarion being a newbie-killer, not about Wish's idea.
And if you disagree with me about that, I'm sorry Erian, we must view the game differently.
I believe that newbie killing is wrong, and the game doesn't allow for newbies to be killed. Level 15 is fair
game. Period.

Janna
		*****
Janna: Wish's idea
Wed Dec 3 21:31:11 2003
To: all
The basic idea is a good one, although the basic argument will remain. Who is to say what level a newbie is?
If Tynian makes it so that level 10's are safe from total corpse loss upon pk,
many people, like Rand, will still complain that Gafgarion and his ilk are newbie killers.
He is level 19. It would obviously take making all sub 20's safe from total corpse loss upon pk to make Rand
happy. That is simply ridiculous.
I'll stop now for I fear sounding like Neodis or Rand with all my opinions. :p

Janna
		*****
Gyro: What is a newbie?
Wed Dec 3 21:57:27 2003
To: all
A newbie cannot be defined by level. It is a helpful indicator,
but it is not an error proof test either.
Most newbies, true newbies, that have never played our mud can get to level 15.
My first character got to 17 before I became horribly confused and died constantly.
It is unfair to a person to say "You hit 15, you are now not a newbie. Don't complain."
I agree with Janna on the terms that Gaf is not a newbie killer.
Quan, was a newbie killer. Somebody that camps mage or cleric 13 and kills every 10 is such.
Gaf merely chooses to pk those he has an advantage on, seeing his spells are quite lethal.
Especially to a level 15 that has no more than 300hp total. Or a good aligned player.
However, newbie is not level dependant.
By this logic, any person that is level 1-10 is a newbie and should be pampered.
Even if they are an old player making a fresh start.
This isn't true.
I've seen some sub 10's that have better sets than I do.
They are not newbies, and I would not weep for a person that died at level 6 if they swung MUTI.
Newbies are people that do not understand the complexities of the game.
This includes PK most of all. So yes, somebody can prey on the less expieranced and be above level 20.
Leveling, especially at the lower levels is easy. A person can reach 15 with barely leaving their HT.
So, in conclusion to this mess, I think Wish's idea should be considered.
But, I think we should focus more keeping our new players rather than blaming others for losing them.
Sorry for this note, was on telnet when I wrote it. Kinda messy. :)
		*****
Wish: My idea and its implications...
Thu Dec 4 06:49:43 2003
To: all
The introduction of "Gafgarion" to this discussion and whether or not he is
or is not a "newbie" killer is unfortunate, and irrelevant. I request
that we leave our in-char personal feelings out of this for a moment
and consider the true implications of this idea.
There are those who enjoy pking at various levels. I see no
good reason to restrict pking further than it already has been.
Implementation of my idea, or something similar along those lines,
would not restrict pking nor would it discourage it. Those who enjoy
the slaying of lower levels would still have that and would still reap rewards
when successful.
What is a "newbie"? That is a good question, and I think we all
would have slightly different answers. However, in terms of my idea
I am referring to those people who are very new to TFC. This would be their
first TFC character, or perhaps even their first mud character...an unlikely
event, perhaps, but it is exactly those people who we need to attract and keep
in order for TFC to remain a viable playing environment.
It is fairly easy for anyone, even a newbie as I have described, to level
quickly to level 20, even with those under 20 pkers out there.
However, without decent leveling gear, those levels are almost
always terrible in terms of hp and mana gains. New players are
further discouraged when the leveling gear that they do have, which
is essentially worthless to everyone else, is lost after a pk or a corpse loot.
This is exactly why I have a personal policy of 1. Never looting a char
under level 14, and 2. Returning most if not all equipment that is of
little use to anyone but the person who lost it, i.e. leveling gear.

I still believe that pking at low levels serves and important function to
to the game, even when it is done by by those obsessive "newbie" killers.
It serves to instruct new players in the inherent dangers of the game
and makes them more vigilant. In the long run it makes them better players.
Since I can not expect everyone to adhere to my own personal standards
I propose that a methodology be coded to reduce the cost/benefit of
low level pking.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave
		*****
Neodis: Wish's Idea
Fri Dec 5 14:46:07 2003
To: all

Just wanted to say that I think Wish's idea, or something like it
seems to be a good one. Only equipment a pker normally wants is
more pk equipment and most people in those ranges are only carring
lvling gear.

Obviouslt this isn't the case all the time. But it should be most
of the time. So there's no real valid cause to think this isn't
a good idea, at least in principle.
		*****
Twelf: Re: Wish idea about restricted corpse looting
Sat Dec 6 15:53:45 2003
To: all
Given that requipping with limiteds isnt as easy as back in 1.x
that the pit usually isnt filled with too much decent stuff
that a lot of pkers dont have the decency returning anything from the corpses
and that some of the people willing to help 'newbies' have a hard time surviving themselves
makes that TFC is not a very attractive place for new/inexperienced players,
once they have lost their gear, say at lvl 10 to 15.
anything that helps make tfc a more attractive place for them is a good idea , in my view
i would rather see behaviour change than rules, but if that wont happen....
greets Twelfie
		*****
Craige: Re: Twelf
Sat Dec 6 23:02:38 2003
To: all
More than 50% of TFC's player base is venerated
Changing the way that "might" make it more attractive to new players but "will" make it less attractive to old
players is unwise

Craige the Destroyer, Grand Sentinel of the Conclave
		*****
Boromir: re: Craige re: Twelf re: et al
Sun Dec 7 08:36:27 2003
To: all
" .. more than 50% of the TFCs player base is venerated .."
so almost half of player base isnt venerated
I like the idea of limited looting below level 20 (eff 20).
Anyone above effective 20 would be fair game for all their eq etc.
Thus it wouldnt effect the venerated players ... unless of course they take great delight in making a 'new'
players life extremely difficult
If they do take grest deleight in making a 'new' players life extremely difficult, then perhaps they should
reconsider how they play.
Causing 'new' players to leave by making their mud lifes painful and difficult does not help this game grow.
So I guess the question to ask would be :
Is there resistance to this proposal by players because it is a change?
.. OR ..
is it because some venerated players would not be able make some 'new' players life miserable and in turn
...lose that boost to their ego..
Naturally, I place those players speaking against this proposal on notes in the catergory of being resistant to
change ...
i.e. there is no need for a change .. even tho it doesnt affect them directly

Boromir
		*****
Humble: Newbie debate
Sun Dec 7 19:08:59 2003
To: all
Weee...I'm a newbie! At least by some people's opinion.
This is my first character here. I'd never mudded anywhere else before finding TFC.
I leveled and died and died and leveled and died some more.
I was pk'd young and learned sore lessons.
Then, I discovered a thief's better qualities. :)
People killed me at level 6 for stealing from them, or trying to anyway.
They shouldn't have done that! Or I should have gotten most of my stuff back, cuz I was a newbie.
Then I learned how to backstab!
I tried it out a few times, and died a few times as a result.
I was only level 6 too! I shoulda got all my stuff back, or most of it, cuz I was a newbie!
I've learned a little more, and die less often, but I'm still learning.
I don't know this mud very well still, and I don't know all my skills as well as I should simply because I
don't read or type very fast.
So ya see, I'm still a newbie and I should be treated as one.
C'mon folks. Where do we draw the line on who is and isn't a newbie?
So where do I sign up, cuz this is my first character and I'm a true newbie.
Don't let the levels fool ya, they're an illusion. I actually stole them from Alive, the original newbie
killer.
Humbly, Humble.
		*****
Neodis: Humble: Drawing the line for newbies
Mon Dec 8 03:48:13 2003
To: all

It's already been noted that defining a newbie is possibly
immposible using only code. However that's all we got for tools
in trying to make this a better MUD for everyone. Well, as
Twelf said, a change in behavior would be better.
That's not integrated into the game though. So it would
appear that saying less then L21 is as good a definition
as any other. That's what we can work with within the
bounds of the code.

So, if everyone keeps this in mind when we discuss these
issues then we'll make more headway, rather then going over
old ground.
		*****
Kayura: Neodis: Humble: Drawing the line for newbies
Mon Dec 8 04:33:07 2003
To: neodis all

Back in the day level 5 was a newbie. Then a lot of people got
together and whined so that a "newbie" would be sub-11. Then people
whined that there needed to be a different range system so that 50's
weren't killing off 20's. Tada, here we are.

Now the same whiny mass argues that sub-21's should be considered
newbies. Unfortunately, raising the newbie bar only forces
newbies to stay new because no one can slap them around show
them what an intelligent being (i.e. PC) can do with their skills
and spells.

The same ol' argument about adding new players to the base
keeps getting thrown around as if we were arguing for change years ago.
Its a pk mud people! New players have so many provisions in their favor
that it disgusts me. But without question, anyone who levels 10 times
gets the idea well enough that they can die and be naked. So what
if they can't get perfect levels? Does anyone get perfect levels the
first several characters? And if that is what a new character
wants, then there are plenty of followings who hold a monopoly
on the playerbase to avoid any and all pks (look at Shilea, where the
heck did she come from?)

I have faith in the leadership of this MUD, and I know that whining
without solid justification won't result in policy change. I just post
this to talk sense into the terribly misguided opposition.
		*****
Neodis: Kayura: It's not changed again
Mon Dec 8 05:38:27 2003
To: all

Kayura, saying Less then 21 and 20 and below is the same thing.
... Nothing has changed. So the spark that sent you careening
down that tangent does not actually exist. Did you read my note?
Did you miss the part that was trying to find some sort of common
ground so that we could all work around it equally and hopefully
find helpful solutions rather then rehashing the same material
over and over again?

Instead of saying what ever it is you need to say to oppose me
try applying a little brain power to finding an alternate solution
to something. Rather then more of the whining that you complain about.
		*****
Sluuna: looting corpses etc
Mon Dec 8 13:15:25 2003
To: all
Instead of asking for intensive coding from Tynian to allow
only looting a few items from a corpse (which is also a
strange thing from an in-game perspective), why not go with
the idea of making the pit newbie friendly?
Only sub 20s can get stuff out of the pit, and anyone can
donate anything to the pit, with a donate item command.
Thats my 2 cents :)
		*****
Kayura: re: Neodis: Kayura: It's not changed again
Mon Dec 8 18:54:58 2003
To: Neodis All
The spark you to which you are referring is the notion that we should
call sub-21's newbies, which is an entirely ludicrous definition.

My argument, that you missed, was that the definition of newbie as sub-11 is
sufficient and that there is NOT a need to make the game any safer
than it already is for players who are effective 11+.

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