(Below are the responses to kyrie's mud balancing idea. They were posted over a few days, but i put them all here to make it easier to read.)

Neodis: RE: Kyrie: MUD balancing
Sat Nov 8 11:34:21 2003
To: all
I don't think that you should be forced to play in a following
that does not have what you want. For example an active FLI or
a following different to the one that you choose as perfect for
you.

There are many reasons why some followings get more members and
others do not. Power and popularity are only two reasons. For
example take Lord Majere's following. His was one of the youngest
and newest followings yet the Clan of the Rose was huge.

A FLI limit would only serve to put out those who would be part
of the following that suits their character.

		*****
Fobro: Re: MUD balancing
Sat Nov 8 21:46:51 2003
To: all
First, let me concede that Coven currently has a majority over
other followings. That said, I'd like to say that the way the
idea posted by Kyrie stated things made it appear that not only
do very few people play here, but they only play one characer
or only in the same following. When a following takes a level
1 character they are not taking a gamble, they do so with the
knowlege that that person will be very helpful. Why then would
a following even consider accepting a person that ruined their
first few levels if it would nudge out a follower slot?
Further, you argue your point under the presumption that
there is some actual reason that a following shouldn't dominate
in player base. I can see absolutely no reason for this for the
simple reason that there will always be rebels.

Not sure why I even decided to throw in my two bits. By the time
any such implementation was finished (assuming it was started)
there would be the murmering a different following being too
powerful. I suppose if you get nothing else out of this take this
to heart: Have fun, play, and learn the ways of the world
and those that live in it.

Fobro, Scribe of the FoLK
		*****
Kyrie: Re: MUD balancing
Sun Nov 9 18:28:43 2003
To: ALL
Neodis, I'm glad you decided to make your opinion known because;
I couldn't have guessed how you would have felt, given you are;
one of the people who benefit the most from the current;
situation at hand. I disagree with your claim that a FLI limit;
"would only serve to put out those who would be part of the
following that suits their character" simply because you don't
provide any basis for this statement. What defines a following;
that suits your character, Neodis? I'm positive that it doesn't;
require any specific role-playing standards, because, in this;
form or one of my many others, I have never seen you roleplay;
ever. Unless of course you truly believe that by you posting on;
comments like "great log Lexie" or I hate Solaron too! or, my;
personal favorite: "LOL We should have this thread closed too,
or we all will just continue to make stupid comments..." which
really just sums up your existence entirely. I'm not sure what
you are trying to achieve with all of these posts. A high post;
count perhaps? Are you attempting to let everyone know that you;
exist and have thoughts when you see or read things, confirming
that connections in your brain are actually happening? To be;
fair, I'll try not to incorporate any of my OOC opinions here,;
but I see your name on literally almost every post and it just
reminds me of a little kid tied to one of those human leashes;
around their parents wrist because their mom/dad doesn't think;
that they are important or significant enough to devote the
tiny amount of extra energy that it would take to actually hold;
the kid's hand and pay more attention to him or her. Don't;
worry Neodis, we see you jumping up and down waving your arms.
We understand you exist and are happy you can now sometimes
leave the safe room provided no threatening players are online.;

Fobro, I'm not sure you really understood my post. I _never_;
said that players here only play one character or only in one;
specific following. I myself have many characters at different
levels ranging from 10 to 43. I also believe that the majority;
of "new" characters are not really new at all but people who,;
for a variety of possible reasons, have decided to recreate and
play the game in a new form. These characters differ greatly;
from the small percentage of true newbies who now are put at;
a disadvantage not only in terms of knowledge of the game, but
with gear (which leads to better and faster levels) and other;
external assistance as well. Its not that the level 1 chars;
FLIs are accepting wont become valuable, its the fact that
such characters have a huge advantage over non-accepted chars.;
You illustrate my point perfectly when you question why a FLI;
would even consider accepting a low level character then, if it
would exclude other possible higher level characters. They;
wouldnt, which would help stop the reroll catering to at least;
some extent and give the true newbies a more even playing field
when compared to the non-newbie new characters. Would it stop;
such advantageous gearing completely? Of course not. But it;
would serve to make it more difficult to do.

Obviously from my idea post, I believe in the balancing of the;
game. Im adamantly opposed to one complete following having a
monopoly of power. Its one thing to have people to combat and;
struggle against as you level, but its pointless to play when;
you have no chance of success. Just look at some of the PK logs
which have occurred as of late. Five characters on one? Yeah,;
theres no problem in that. . . But perhaps the target should;
have exercised more precautions when leaving the safe. Sure,
this could be true. However when I want to play a game, I want;
to actually play it, not sit in the safe room and wait for all;
of the thieves of the power following to log off so that I can
go to a remote area and spend time experiencing to level up;
only to discover that my time spent has been meaningless, since;
one poorly equipped character cannot possibly stand up to many
well equipped characters, especially when they have a reservoir;
of equipment on hand and available to them.;

In the past few weeks, Bliss has accepted 39 new members on top;
of her already Greater Power status following base.The majority;
of these characters are over effective level 20 and highly
active. Has any other following even come close to this? Nope.;
If you dont see a problem with this, Im not sure that youre;
thinking straight. Never has there been this much polarization
in the game. Especially funny too that you chose to comment on;
this and talk about how you have no problem with it, since you;
are part of a pacifist following which isnt hexed. Oh, and the
reason you give to explain why this is ok is because there;
will always be rebels. What? Did that part make any sense to;
yourself when you typed it, because I dont see any way I could
have.So youre saying that the entire populous of TFC should be;
rebels against a following of evil witches and warlocks which,;
from a roleplaying perspective,one would think would be smaller
and more cultish in nature to begin with?

I could probably talk about this forever too, but I think the
point has been made. I feel that my idea would benefit the game;
tremendously, but whether it will actually be implemented is an;
entirely different matter altogether.

Kyrie

PS - ZMud ruined the crisp formatting of this note :(
		*****
Rath: Kyrie's idea
Sun Nov 9 18:56:53 2003
To: all
I support something along these lines
-Rath
		*****
Neodis: RE: Kyrie
Sun Nov 9 20:26:23 2003
To: all
Sorry I gave you an on topic reply to your idea Kyrie. I'll be sure
to focus attention elsewhere next time. Until then, try to keep
unnessisary flippant remarks out of your own replies before you
say that you will keep your OOC opinions to yourself.

Kind regards
Neodis
		*****
Rand: Re: Kyrie: MUD balancing
Sun Nov 9 20:41:14 2003
To: all
Just my two cents. I dont see how this idea helps at all. It just sounds to me like
another person complaining about not being allied with the majority. Limiting the size
of a FLI's following will only serve to completely take out a newbies chance of finding
a following. Who wants a newbie when they can have a player who has been around for years?
Especially when they have limited space. Honestly this idea makes littel sense to me.

Before it gets said, Yes I am in Coven, Yes I am active, Yes I do attack, steal ect.
But, Before Coven i was in Rose, and then people complained about the Rose/Coven/Fate alliance
So is it following size you want to limit? Or just the size of your enemies?
All that will happen if you limit following size is you gill get an increase in UAs
and a increase in the size of alliances. So now instead of one big following you have 4
in one big team. Joy!

Anyway im done. Have fun saying im jumping on the bandwagon or whatever petty little
insult you can come up with. It wont matter to me, so you're just doing it for attention.

Enjoy!
Thorny Rose of the Ashen Moon
Rand al'Thor
		*****
Darkfang: Re: MUD balancing
Sun Nov 9 23:54:32 2003
To: all
I don't usually post to arguments like this,
but somehow this hit a nerve in me, so
I am responding to this one.

First off, I'd like to establish my credentials.
I am now in the Fellowship of Lore and Knowledge, true.
And I do realise that this was a large basis for
you, Kyrie, rejecting Fobro's note. However, I would
also point out that I am an ex-Tiger, and as such
have played in a small blue following struggling
against the red tide of the Black Conclave,
through Tigers ascending in power in the wake of a
waning Clave, and still onto the fading glory
of Tigers and the rise of the treacherous Coven.
All this to say that I have been in all walks
of the cycle, and I do know where you're coming from.
For the Conclave may not have been as big as
the Coven of the Ash Moon is now, but I find when your
enemies outnumber you 3 to one or 14 to one,
it makes precious little difference. They are
just as lethal.

I will not disagree with the benificiality
of balance. However I will state that I don't believe
that such balance can be brought about by the
limiting of the numbers of followers in followings.
I would even argue that (while it is predominantly
somewhat heavy on the evil side), there is
a certain element of longterm balance
about the realm as it stands. I have seen
evil followings rise, and good followings
rise to challenge them:Tigers to Black Conclave, and
Hawk, Star, and Enforcers to Hunt and Coven of the
Ash Moon. They start out weaker, but
each is taking their toll.

If the following sizes were to be reduced, I see
number of things happening.
Larger followings would be brought down to a more comfortable
size for the rest of us, true. (I won't get
the logistics or politics of picking who
would get to remain in those big followings, and
who would get rejected/reformed)
But I believe that this would only give a temporary
reprieve, for people like to be powerful (and FLI's
are no exception), and there will still be several
avenues to become so.

The first, as Rand stated, is alliances. They will likely
become more important, more prevailant (official and otherwise)
and remain as deadly to opponants as a large following.
The second is by becoming pickier about who they let into
their following. People like myself, who have low stats and who
level slowly, would have immense difficulty finding a
following, and those followings who would bring in newbies and
weak characters would be easier to target, as they wouldn't
have room to accept both small chars and those who
would be strong enough to defend them.
Instances of level 1 characters being accepted into a
following would likely only increase, because by looking
at the history I've seen, I know a character who was
accepted into a following at level one, and at half my effective level
had double my mana and at _least_ half again my
hp. This character has also levelled quickly (in spite of being
in a following that is both Hunted and Hexed). With these thoughts in
mind, what Blue FLI seeking to squash Evils (or Red FLI
hungry for Blue Blood) would hesitate to reject a weaker
big char for the longterm benefits of a stronger little one?

These are the biggest issues I can see and can (mostly) back up
from experience, while there are others, I think I've
pontificated, waxed eloquent, and otherwise run
my mouth enough on the subject for one (or possibly
several) note(s). So hopefully I've given you (all) something
to think about and/or chew on, without having been too
inflamatory.

V^^^^V
Darkfang Elvenwolf-Tsarran.
		*****
Alterack: Re: MUD Balancing (Kyrie's Idea)
Mon Nov 10 08:53:00 2003
To: all
I was just wondering if you could clarify your idea:
What if characters go inactive, or don't play for months?
Would they be counted in the "character quota" as well?
Because if they are, then that would make some followings
pretty bare most of the time, because their less active
characters aren't playing all the time.
		*****
Tynian: Re: MUD balancing
Mon Nov 10 11:21:42 2003
To: all
I've referred this matter to the Immortal forum for discussion and vote.
		*****
Tynian: Re: MUD balancing
Mon Nov 10 22:04:48 2003
To: all
The Immortals have reviewed and voted on the proposed MUD balancing idea.
The proposition failed by a large margin.

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